A Very Pleasaunt & Fruitful Diologe Called the Epicure

H. Surely, if you go to the minte you shall see gould fyned wyth fyre, notwithstãdyng that ther is also, a certaine kynde of linê that brenneth not if it bee cast in ye fyre, but loketh more whiter then any water coulde haue made it, & therefore it is called Linum asbestinum, a kynde of lynen, whyche canne neither bee quenched with water nor brent with fyre.

Spu. Nowe in good faith you bring a paradox more wõderful then all the maruailous and profound thynges of the Stoickes: lyue thei pleasasauntly whom Chryst calleth blessed for that they mourne & lament?

Hedonius. Thei seme too the worlde too mourne, but verely they lyue in greate pleasure, and as the commune saiynge is, thei lyue all together in pleasure, in somuche that SARDANAPALVS, Philoxenus, or Apitius compared vnto them: or anye other spoken of, for the greate desyre and study of pleasures, did leade but a sorowefull and a myserable lyfe.

Spe. These thinges that you declare bee so straunge and newe, that I can scarcelye yeoue any credite vnto them.

Hedo. Proue and assaye them ones, and you shall fynde all my saiynges so true as the Gospell, and immediatly I shal bryng the thynge too suche a conclusion (as I suppose) that it shall appeare too differ very lytle from the truth

SPV. make hast then vnto your purpose.

HED. It shalbe doone if you wyll graunt me certayne thynges or I begynne.

Spu. If in case you demaunde suche as bee resonable.

Hedo. I wyl take myne aduauntage, if you confesse the thyng that maketh for mine intent.

Spu. go too.

Hedo. I thynke ye wyll fyrste graunt me, that ther is great diuersitie betwxt the solle and the bodye

Spu. Euen as much as there is betwene heauen and yearth, or a thyng earthly and brute, & yt whiche dieth neuer, but alwayes cõtaineth in it the godly nature.

Hedo. And also, that false deceiueable & coûterfetted holy thynges, are not too bee taken for those, which in very dede be godly.

Spude. No more then the shaddowes are too bee estemed for the bodies, or the illusions and wonders of wytchcraftes or the fantasies of dreames, are too bee taken as true thynges.

HE. Hitherto you answer aptly too my purpose, and I thynke you wyl graunt me this thyng also, that true and godly pleasure can reste and take place no where but only on such a mynd that is sobree and honest.

SPV. What elles? for no man reioyseth too beholde the Sunne, if his eyes bee bleared or elles delecteth in wyne, if the agew haue infected hys tast.

HED. And the Epicure hymselfe, or elles I am disceiued, would not clippe & enbrace that pleasure, whiche would bring with it farre greater payne and suche as would bee of long continuaunce.

SPV I thynke he woulde not, if he had any wytte at all.

HED. Nor you wyll not denye this, that God is the chiefe and especiall goodnes, then whõ there is nothyng fayrer, there is nothyng ameabler, ther is nothing more delicious and swetter.

SPVDE. No man wyll deny thys except he bee very harde hearted and of an vngentler nature then the Ciclopes.

HED. Nowe you haue graunted vnto me, that none lyue in more pleasure, then thei whyche lyue vertuouslye, and agayne, none in more sorowe and calamytie then those that lyue vngratiously.

Spu. Then I haue graûted more thê I thought I had.

He. But what thing you haue ones cõfessed too bee true (as Plato sayth) you should not deny it afterward.

SPV. Go furth with your matter.

HEDO The litle whelpe yt is set store and greate price by, is fed most daintely, lieth soft, plaieth and maketh pastime continually, doo you thinke that it lyueth plesaûtly?

SPV. It dooeth truely.

HEDO. Woulde you wyshe to haue suche a lyfe?

SPV. God forbyd that, excepte I woulde rather bee a dogge then a man,

HEDO. Then you confesse that all the chief pleasures arise and spring frõ the mynd, as though it were from a welspryng.

SPV. That is euident ynough.

HE. Forsoth the strength and efficacy of the minde is so great, that often it taketh away the felyng of al externe and outward pain & maketh that pleasaunt, which by it selfe is very peynful.

SPV. We se that dayly in louers, hauyng great delight to sytte vp long & too daunce attendaunce at their louers doores all the colde wynter nyghtes.

HEDo. Now weigh this also, if the naturall loue of man, haue suche great vehemency in it, which is a cõmune thyng vnto vs, both with bulles and dogges, howe much more should all heauenly loue excell in vs, which cõmeth of ye spirit of Christ, whose strêgthe is of suche power, that it would make death a thîg most terrible, too bee but a pleasure vnto vs.

Spu. What other men thîke inwardly I know not, but certes thei wãt many pleasures which cleaue fast vnto true and perfect vertue.

He. What pleasures?

Spu. Thei waxe not rich, thei optein no promotiõ, thei bãket not, thei daûce not, thei sing not, thei smell not of swete oyntmêtes, thei laugh not, thei play not.

He. We should haue made no mention in thys place of ryches and prefermente, for they bryng wyth them no pleasaunt lyfe, but rather a sadde and a pêsiue. Let vs intreate of other thynges, suche as they chiefely seeke for, whose desyre is to liue deliciously, see ye not daily drõkerdes, fooles, and mad menne grinne and leape?

SPV. I see it

HED. Do you thynke that thei liue most pleasaûtly?

SPV God send myne enemies such myrth & pleasure.

HE. Why so?

Sp. For ther lacketh emongist thê sobrietie of mind.

HE. Then you had leuer sit fastyng at your booke, then too make pastime after any suche sorte.

SP. Of thê both: truly I had rather chose to delue.

H. For this is plaine that betwixt the mad mã & the drûkerd ther is no diuersitie, but yt slepe wil helpe the one his madnes, & with much a doo ye cure of Physicions helpeth the other, but the foole natural differeth nothing frõ a brute beast except by shape and portrature of body, yet thei be lesse miserable whom nature hathe made verye brutes, then those that walowe theim selues in foule and beastly lustes.

SP. I confesse that.

Hedo. But now tell me, whether you thynke thê sobre and wyse, which for playn vanities and shadowes of plesure, booth dispice the true and godlye pleasures of the mynde and chose for them selues suche thynges as bee but vexacion & sorowe.

SPV. I take it, thei bee not.

Hedo. In deede thei bee not drûke with wyne, but with loue with anger, with auarice, with ambicion, and other foule and filthie desires, whiche kynde of drunkenes is farre worse, thê that is gotten with drinking of wine. Yet Sirus yt leude cõspaniõ of whom mention is made in ye commedie, spake witty thynges after he had slepte hym self soobre, and called too memorie his greate and moost beastlye drunkenes: but the minde that is infected with vicious & noughty desire, hath muche a doo too call it selfe whom agein? How many yeares doeth loue, anger, spite, sensualitie, excesse, and ambition, trouble and prouoke the mynde? How many doo wee see, whiche euen from their youth, too their latter dais neuer awake nor repêt them of the drunkennes, of ambitiõ, nigardnes, wanton lust, & riatte?

Spu. I haue knowen ouermany of yt sorte.

Hedo. You haue graûted that false and fayned good thinges, are not too bee estemed for the pure and godly.

Sp. And I affirme that still.

Hedo. Nor that there is no true and perfect pleasure, except it bee taken of honest and godly thynges.

Spud. I confesse that.

He. Then (I pray you) bee not those good that the commune sorte seeke for, they care not howe?

Spu. I thinke they be not.

Hedo. Surely if thei were good, they would not chaunce but onely too good men: and would make all those vertuous that they happen vntoo. What maner of pleasure make you that, doo you thinke it too bee godly, which is not of true & honest thynges, but of deceatfull: and coometh out of ye shadowes of good thynges?

Sp. Nay in noo wyse.

He. For pleasure maketh vs to liue merely.

Spu. Yea, nothyng so muche.

He. Therfore no man truely liueth pleasauntly, but he that lyueth godly: that is, whiche vseth and delecteth onli in good thynges: for vertue of it selfe, maketh a man to habound in all thynges that bee good, perfete, & prayse worthy: yea, it onely prouoketh God the fountaine of all goodnes, too loue and fauour man.

SP. I almost consent with you.

HED. But now marke howe far they bee from all pleasure, whiche seeme openly emongist all men too folowe nothyng, but the inordinate delectation in in thynges carnall. First their mynde is vile, and corrupted with the sauour and taste of noughtie desires, in so muche yt if any pleasaunt thing chaunce them, forthwith it waxeth bitter, and is nought set by, in like maner as where ye welle hed is corrupted and stynketh, there ye water must nedes be vnsauery. Agein ther is no honest pleasure, but that whiche wee receaue with a sobre and a quiet mynde. For wee see, nothyng reioyseth the angry man more, thê too bee reuenged on his offenders, but that pleasure is turned into pain after his rage bee past, and anger subdued.

Spu. I say not the contrary.

He. Finally, suche leude pleasures bee taken of fallible thinges, therefore it foloweth that they be but delusiõs and shadowes. What woulde you say furthermore, if you saw a mã so deceaued with sorcerie & also other detestable witchecraftes, eat, drynke, leap, laugh, yea, and clappe handes for ioye, when ther wer no such thyng there in very dede, as he beleueth he seeth.

Spu. I wolde say he were both mad and miserable.

Hedo. I my self haue been often in place, where the lyke thyng hath been doone. There was a priest whiche knewe perfectly by longe experience and practise, the arte to make thynges seme that they were not, otherwise called, deceptio visus.

Sp. He did not lerne that arte of the holy scripture?

Hedo. Yea, rather of most popeholy charmes and witchecraftes: that is too saye, of thinges, cursed, dampnable, and wourthy too bee abhorred. Certayne ladies & gentlewomen of the courte, spake vnto hym oftentimes: saiyng, they woulde coomn one day too his house and see what good chere he kept: reprouyng, greatly vile and homly fare, and moderate expenses in all thynges. He graunted they shulde bee welcome, and very instauntly desired them. And they came fastyng because they would haue better appetites. Whã they wer set to dyner (as it was thought) ther wãted noo kynde of delitious meat: they filled thê selues haboûdantly: after ye feast was doone, they gaue moost hearty thanckes, for their galaunte cheare, and departed, euery one of them vnto their owne lodgynges: but anone their stomackes beganne too waxe an hungred, they maruayled what this shuld meane, so soone to be an hungred and a thirste, after so sumptuous a feast: at the last the matter was openly knowen and laught at.

Spu. Not without a cause, it had been muche better for thê too haue satisfied their stomackes at their owne chãbers with a messe of potage, thê too be fed so delitiousli with vain illusiõs.

H. And as I thîk ye cõmune sort of men ar muche more too bee laught at, whiche in steede of Godlye thynges, chose vaine and transitory shadowes, and reioyce excedyngly in suche folishe phansies that turne not afterwarde in too a laughter, but into euerlasting lamentation and sorow.

Spudeus The more nerelier I note your saiynges, the better I like thê.

Hedo. Go too, let vs graunt for a tyme these thynges too bee called pleasaunt, that in very dede ar not. Would yow saye that meeth were swete: whiche had more Aloes myngled with it, then honye?

Spud. I woulde not so say and if there were but the third part of an ounce of Aloes mixt with it.

Hedo. Or els, would you wishe to bee scabbed because you haue some pleasure too scratch?

Spud. Noo, if I wer in my right mynd.

HED. Then weigh with your self how great peyne is intermyngled wyth these false and wrongly named pleasures, yt vnshamefast loue filthie desire, much eatyng and drinking bring vs vnto: I doo omitte now that, which is principall grudge of cõscience, enemitie betwixt God and mã, and expectation of euerlastyng punishêment. What kynd of pleasure, I pray you is ther in these thinges, that dooeth not bryng with it a greate heape of outeward euilles?

SPV. What bee thei?

HEDO. We ought to let passe and forbeare in this place auarice, ambition, wrath, pryde enuy, whiche of their selues bee heuy and sorowful euylles and let vs conferre and compare all those thynges together, yt haue the name of some chief and special pleasure: wher as the agew the hedache, the swelling of the belly, dulnes of witte, infamy, hurt of memory, vomyting, decaye of stomacke, tremblyng of the body succede of ouer muche drynking: thynke you, that the Epicure would haue estemed any suche lyke pleasure as thys, cõuenient and wourthy desire?

SPV. He woulde saye it wer vtterly too bee refused.

HEDONi. Wheras young men also with hauntynge of whores (as it is dayly seene) catche the newe leprosie, nowe otherwyse named Jobs agew, and some cal it the scabbes of Naples, throughe which desease they feele often ye most extreme and cruell paines of deathe euen in this lyfe, and cary about a bodye resemblyng very much some dead coarse or carryn, do you thynke that thei apply them selues vnto godlye pleasure.

SPVD. Noo, for after thei haue been often familiar with their prety ones, then they must goo streighte too the barbours, that chaunceth continuallye vnto all whoremongers.

HED. Now fayne that ther wer a lyke measure of pain and plesure, would ye then require too haue the toothache so longe as the pleasure of quaffing & whordome endured?

SPV. Verely I had rather wãt them booth, for ther is no commoditie nor vantage to bye pleasure with payn but only to chaûg one thing for another, but the best choise is nowe not too affectionate anye such leudnes, for MAR. Tullius calleth that an inward greife & sorow.

He. But now ye prouocation & entisemêt of vnleful plesure, besides that it is much lesse then the pain which it bringeth with it, it is also a thing of a very short time: but if the leprosye bee ones caught, it tourmêteth mê al their life daies very pitifully & oftentimes cõstraineth them to wyshe for death before thei cã dye.

SP. Such disciples as those then, the Epicure would not knowe.

HED. For the most part pouertie, a very miserable and painfull burden, foloweth lechery, of immoderate lust cõmeth the palsie, tremblyng of ye senewes, bleardnes of eyes, and blyndnes, the leprosie and not these only, is it not a pper pece of worke (I pray you) to chaûg this short pleasure neyther honest nor yet godly, for so manye euylles far more greuouse and of muche longer continuance.

SP. Although there shoulde no pain com of it, I esteme hym to bee a very fond occupier, which would chaûge precious stones for glasse.

HE. You meane that would lose the godly pleasures of the mynde, for the coloured pleasures of ye body.

SP. That is my meanyng.

HE. But nowe let vs come to a more perfecter supputation, neither the agewe nor yet pouerty foloweth alwaies carnal pleasure, nor the new leprosy or els the palsy wait not on at al times the great & excessiue vse of lecherye, but grudge of cõsiêce euermore is a folower & sure companiõ of al vnleaful pleasure, then the which as it is plainly agreed betwixt vs, nothyng is more miserable.

SPV. Yea, rather it grudgeth their cõscience sometyme before hande, & in the self pleasure it pricketh their mynde, yet ther bee some yt you woulde say, want this motion and feelyng.

HE. Thei bee nowe therfore in worse estate & cõditiõ. Who would not rather feele payne, then too haue hys body lacke any perfecte sence, truly from some ether intemperatnes of euel desires, euen like as it were a certayne kynde of drunkenes, or els wont and cõmune haunt of vice which ar so hardened in them, yt they take a way ye felyng & cõsideration of euyl in their youth, so that whã agee commeth vpõ them beside other infinitie hurtes and perturbations agaynst whose commyng thei should haue layd vp the deedes of their former lyfe, as a special iuwel and treasure: then thei stande greatly in fear of death, a thyng emongist all other most ineuitable, & that no man canne shonne: yea, and the more they haue heretofore been dysmayed and lacked their sences, the greater now is their vnquietnes and grudge of conscience, then truely the mynde is sodenly awaked whether it wol or noo, and verely wher as olde agee is alwayes sad and heuy of it selfe for as muche as it is in subiection and bondage vnto many incommodities of nature, but then it is farre more wretchede and also fylthye, if the mynde vnquiet with it selfe shal trouble it also: feastes, ryotous banketyng, syngyng, and daunsynge, with manye suche other wanton toyes & pastimes which he was communely yeouê vnto & thought very plesaût when he was young, bee nowe paynfull vnto hym beyng olde and crooked, ne agee hath nothyng too comforte and fortifi it selfe withall, but onely too remembre that it hath passed ouer the course of yeares in vertue and godly liuyng and conceaue a special trust too obtaine herafter a better kynde of life. These be the two staues wherevpon age is stayed, & if in their steed you wyll lay on hym these two burdens: that is, memorie how synfully he hath ledde his life, and desperation of the felicitie that is too coome, I praye you what liuyng thyng can bee feyned too suffre sorer punishement and greater miserie?

spu. Verely I can see nothyng although some man woulde saye an olde horse.

hedo. Then to cõclude it is too late to waxe wise And that saiyng appereth now too bee very true. Carefull mornynges doo oftentymes folowe mery euentides, and all vayne and outragious mirth euer turneth into sorowfull sighes: yea, & they shulde haue considered both that there is noo pleasure aboue ye ioyfulnes of the heart, and that chearefull mynde maketh agee too florishe, an heauy spirit consumeth the boones, & also that all the dayes of the poore are euell: that is, sorowfull and wretched. And agayne a quiet mynde is lyke a contynuall feaste.

SPVDEVS. Therfore they bee wyse, that thryue in tyme, and gather too gether necessaries for that agee coomn.

HEDONI. The holy scripture intreateth not soo wordely as too measure the felicitie and highe consolation of manne, by the goodes of fortune, onely he is very poore, that is destitute and voyde of al grace & vertue, and standeth in boundage and debette, bothe of bodye & solle vnto that tyranne oure moost foo & mortall enemie the deuill.

SPV. Surely he is one that is veri rigorous and impatient in demaundynge of his dutie.

HE. Moreouer that man is ryche, whiche fyndeth mercye and foryeouenes at the handes of god. What shuld he feare, that hath suche a protectour? Whether men? where as playnely theyr hole power may lesse do agaêst God, then the bytyng of a gnat, hurteth the Elephant. Whether death? truly that is a right passage for good men vnto all sufficient ioy and perfection accordyng too the iust reward of true religion and vertue. Whether hell? For as in that the holy prophete speaketh boldely vnto God. Although I shulde walke in the middest of the shadow of death, I wil not feare any euils because ye art with me. Wherfore shulde he stande in feare of deuils, whiche beareth in his heart hym, that maketh the deuils too tremble and quake. For in diuers places the holye scripture praiseth and declareth opêly the mynde of a vertuous man, too bee the right temple of God. And this to bee so true yt that it is not too bee spoken agaynst, ne in any wise shuld bee denied.

SPV. Forsoth I can not see, by what reason these saiynges of yours can be confuted al thoughe they seme too varye muche from the vulgar and cõmune opinion of men.

HEDO. Why doo they soo?

SPV. After your reasonyng euery honest poore man, shulde liue a more pleasaunt life, then any other, how much soeuer he did haboûd in riches, honour, and dignitie: and breuely though he had all kynde of pleasures.

HE. Adde this too it (if it please you) too bee a kyng, yea, or an emperour if you take away a quiet mynd with it selfe, I dare boldely say, that the poore man sklenderlye and homely appareled, made weake with fastyng, watchyng, great toile and labour, and that hath scarcely a groat in all the worlde, so that his mynde bee godly, he lyueth more deliciously then that man whiche hathe fyue hûdreth times greater pleasures & delicates, then euer had Sardanapalus.

SP. Why is it thê, that we see communely those that bee poore looke farre more heuely then riche men.

HED. Because some of them bee twise poore, eyther some desease, nedines, watchyng, labour, nakednesse, doo soo weaken the state of their bodyes, that by reason therof, the chearefulnes of their myndes neuer sheweth it selfe, neyther in these thinges, nor yet in their deathe. The mynde, forsooth thoughe it bee inclosed within this mortal bodye, yet for that it is of a stronger nature, it sõwhat trãsfourmeth and fascioneth the bodie after it selfe, especially if the vehement instigation of the spirit approche the violent inclination of nature: this is the cause we see oftentymes suche men as bee vertuous die more cherefully, then those that make pastyme contynually, & bee yeouê vnto all kynd of pleasures.

SP. In very dede, I haue meruayled oftten at that thyng.

HE. Forsoothe it is not a thyng too bee marueyled at, though that there shulde bee vnspeakeable ioy and comforte where God is present, whiche is the heed of all mirth and gladnes, nowe this is no straunge thyng, althoughe the mynde of a godly man doo reioyce contynually in this mortall bodye: where as if the same mynde or spirit discended into the lowest place of hell shuld lose no parte of felicitie, for whersoeuer is a pure mynd, there is god, wher God is: there is paradise, ther is heauen, ther is felicitie, wher felicitie is: ther is the true ioy and synsere gladnes.

SP. But yet they shuld liue more pleasauntly, if certein incommodities were taken from them, and had suche pastymes as eyther they dispise orels can not get nor attaine vnto.

HE. (I praye you) doo you meane, suche incommodities as by the commune course of nature folow the cõdition or state of mã: as hunger, thirst, desease, werynes, age, death, lyghtnyng yearthquake, fluddes & battail?

SPV. I meane other, and these also.

HEDO. Then we intreate styll of mortal thynges and not of immortal, & yet in these euils the state of vertuous men, may bee better borne withal, then of suche as seeke for the pleasures of the body they care not howe.

SPV. Why so:

HEDO. Especyally because their myndes bee accustomed and hardened with most sure and moderate gouernaunce of reason against al outragious affections of the mind and they take more patiently those thynges that cannot bee shonned then the other sort doo Furthermore, for as muche as thei perceiue, all such thynges ar sent of god, either for the punishment of their faultes, or els too excitate and sturre them vp vnto vertue, then thei as meeke and obediente chyldren receiue them from the hãd of their mercifull father, not only desireously, but also chearefully and geue thankes also, namely for so merciful punyshment and inestimable gaines.

SPV. But many doo occatiõ griefes vnto thê selues.

HEDO. But mo seeke remedye at the Phisicions, either to preserue their bodies in helth or elles if they bee sycke, too recouer health, but willyngly too cause their owne sorowes, that is, pouertie, sickenes, persecution, slaunder, excepte the loue of God compel vs therto, it is no vertue but folishnes: but as often as thei bee punyshed for Christ and iustice sake, who dar bee so bold as too cal them beggers & wretches? whã the Lord himself very famyliarly calleth them blessed, and commaûdeth vs to reioyse for their state and condition.

SPV. Neuerthelesse, these thynges haue a certayne payne and griefe.

HEDO. Thei haue, but on the onesyde, what for fear of hel, and the other for hoope of euerlastynge ioye, the payne is sone past and forgottê Now tell me if you knewe that you myghte neuer bee sycke, or elles that you shoulde feele no payne of your body in your life tyme, if you woulde but ones suffer your vtter skinne too bee prycked with a pynnes puinct, would you not gladly and with all your very heart suffer then so lytle a payne as that is?

SPV Verye gladlye, yea, rather if I knewe perfectlye that my teeth would neuer ake, I would willynglye suffer too bee prycked depe with a nedle, and too haue both mine eares bored through with a bodkin.

HEDO. Surely what payne soeuer happeneth in this lyfe, it is lesse and shorter, compared with the eternall paines, then is the soden pricke of a needle, incomparisõ of the lyfe of man though it bee neuer so long, for there is no conuenience or proportion of the thyng that hath ende, and that whych is infinite.