Discussion on American Slavery

FIRST NIGHT – MONDAY JUNE 13

Agreeably to public advertisement, the discussion betwixt Mr. George Thompson and the Rev. R. J. Breckinridge, was opened Monday evening, June 13. By half-past six, the hour fixed on by the Committee, Dr. Wardlaw's Chapel contained 1,200 individuals, the number agreed upon by both parties. A great number could not gain admittance, in consequence of the tickets allotted, being bought up on Saturday. On the entrance of the two antagonists, accompanied by the Committee, the audience warmly cheered them. By appointment of the Committee —

Rev. Dr. WARDLAW took the Chair. Having thanked the Committee for the honor they had conferred on him, and which, he trusted, would meet with the concurrence of the meeting, he said he had accepted the honorable post with the utmost confidence in the forbearance and propriety of conduct of the two gentlemen – or antagonists, should he call them? who were to address the meeting; and also, with the most perfect confidence in the good conduct and sense of propriety possessed by the meeting. Had he not possessed such confidence, he would never have thought of undertaking the present task. Had he imagined that the present meeting would give way to similar expressions of feeling as had taken place within these walls on some former occasions, he would at once have declined the task, as one for which he was totally unfit, – he was not fit to manage storms. The parties on the present occasion were different from those to whom they had listened at the time to which he referred. One of them, it was true, was the same, and his character all of them knew. They knew his sentiments, his zeal, his eloquence, his devotedness to the great cause of which he was the fearless advocate. In reference to his opponent, on the present occasion, he would not dishonor that gentleman by naming him along with an individual who had stood before them formerly in opposition to their eloquent friend. He felt it to be his duty to introduce to them his friend – for he was allowed to call him so – the Rev. Mr. Breckinridge. That gentleman had come to this country, the accredited agent from the Presbyterian church – a large and influential body of Christians in America, to the congregational union of England and Wales. It was proper that he should state to the meeting that Mr. Breckinridge was no advocate of slavery – that he believed it to be opposed to the letter and spirit of the gospel, and as a proof how far he was in earnest in his professions in this matter, he had freely parted with a patrimonial estate so far as it consisted of slaves. (Cheers.) Having stated this, it might be further necessary that he should mention what gave rise to the present meeting. They were all aware, then, he said, that since his return from America, Mr. George Thompson had been lecturing in various parts of the kingdom. In the course of his labors he was accused of having brought extravagant and unfounded charges against the American nation, and especially against the ministers of religion in that country. In consequence of this, Mr. Thompson published a challenge in the Patriot newspaper, in which he called upon any American minister to come forward and defend his brethren, if he were able, from the charges which he brought against them. This challenge, through the columns of the same newspaper, had been accepted by Mr. Breckinridge, and now they were here met to enter upon the discussion. The Chairman then read the regulations with regard to the conducting of the discussion which had been agreed upon by the Committee. In addition to what they contained, he might add that the chairman was not to be considered judge of what was relevant or irrelevant, nor was the speaker to be interrupted on any account. He would especially beg their serious attention to the rule requiring the entire suppression of every symptom of approbation or disapprobation. He trusted that his interference would not be required, but if it were he would feel himself called upon by imperative duty to enforce this regulation with the utmost strictness. Mr. Breckinridge had heard from some quarter or other very unfavorable accounts of the decorum of a Glasgow audience. He hoped that their conduct on the present occasion would disabuse that gentleman's mind of any unfavorable opinion he might entertain of them on that score. In conclusion, he might repeat, that he placed the most perfect reliance on the good sense and gentlemanly feeling of both speakers. Let them both, then, be heard fairly. He solicited favor for neither – he demanded justice for both.

Mr. BRECKINRIDGE said, it was not easy to conceive of circumstances that were more embarrassing than those in which he was placed this evening. They had already taken for granted all that had been said and done on one side of the question; their minds had been already made up to oppose those conclusions to which it was his purpose to bring them. Their affections and feelings had long been engaged to his opponent in this cause; and all that he could say would necessarily have little effect in changing what he would not hesitate to call those unhappy opinions, which were long ago formed against him. Another cause of his embarrassment was, that he would be rejudged of all he might say here. What he said would be approved by one party in America, but would be disapproved of by another. In the United States they were differently situated from what the people were in this country. Here the people seemed now united on this subject, but in America they were split up into a great number of different parties, whose opinions and feelings were arrayed against each other in as great a measure as it was possible to conceive. Whatever, therefore, he might say in this country, would be disapproved of by many in the United States, while nothing was more certain than that, what was said by his opponent, would the more commend him to his friends on the other side of the Atlantic; and nothing he could say would probably lower him in the good opinion of his friends here. Hence arose the difficulty of the situation in which he (Mr. B.) found himself placed, and his unusual claim upon their patience in the course of the discussion. Still he should be unworthy of his country, he should be forgetful of the power of truth, he would have little trust in God, if he was not ready to espouse the cause which he believed to be right; and more especially if he was not ready, before a Scotish and a Christian audience, to defend the principles he adopted and avowed. He had no desire to attempt a mitigation of their hatred to slavery; and if, at a future time, he should meet in America with any one now present, he would prove to them by the friendship of those who loved and respected him, and the opposition of those who did not, that he hated slavery as much as any one of those present could do. It was said by one of the ancients, 'I am a man: I consider nothing that relates to man, foreign to me.' It was a true and noble sentiment. The fate of the most hopeless might be theirs if power could make it so; and their condition might have been that of the poorest wretch on earth if God had not smiled upon them and their ancestors as he had done. He did not wish them to interfere with slavery in America. They might interfere, but the question was, how were they to do so? He wished in the course of the discussion to bring before them facts to show, that if they did at all interfere with slavery in America, it must be done as between individuals, not as a national question. That, whatever they did, they do as Christians, not as communities. That they must not, for a moment, look upon it as a question of rival power and glory, as a question between Great Britain and America. If they did so in the slightest degree, their chance of success was gone for ever. In the prosecution of the question, they should not allow themselves to be identified in their efforts with any party in America, in politics, in religion, or metaphysics; more especially, with a small and odious party as they had done to a deplorable extent. They should not identify themselves with a party so small as not to be able to obtain their object, and so erroneous as not to deserve success. Whatever they did should be done meekly, and in the spirit of the gospel; they should not press the principles of the gospel with the spirit of a demon, but with all the sweetness and gentleness of the gospel of peace. These were the principles which he intended to endeavor to impress upon their minds by details which he would adduce in the course of the discussion. It was nothing more than just to the audience that they should know, that they should understand it distinctly, that as far as regarded his opponent, he neither was nor could be any thing more to him or his countrymen than as an individual who had identified himself with certain parties and principles in America. Neither he nor the Americans could have any object in underrating or overrating him. America could have no desire to raise him up or to pull him down. It is not, it cannot be any thing to America what any individual is, or may be, in the eyes of his own countrymen. The King of England is known to America only as the King of Great Britain; if he ceased to be the King of that kingdom, he was to them no more than a common individual. Let it not be supposed that either he or America had any wish, even the most remote, to break down or injure the well earned or ill earned reputation of his opponent. They looked upon him only with reference to his principles, and had no personal motive on earth in reference to that gentleman. Let them not, therefore, think that in any remarks he might make, or charges he might bring forward, he had any intention of implicating his opponent as being solely responsible for these results. He called in question, not the principles of a particular individual only, but those also of a party in America, to whom he would have to answer when he returned to that country. Having said thus much, he would now proceed to the question before them, but would previously make a few preliminary remarks, which he thought necessary to enable them to come to a proper understanding of the subject. He did not think it necessary to trace the progress of the great cause to the present moment. For forty years they had suffered defeat after defeat – yet these defeats only strengthened their cause, even in this country, till they had arrived at a given point. He would not wish to hurt the feelings of a single individual now present, but he was sure he spoke the feelings of all in America, when he said that the great day of their power to do good, as a nation, was to be dated from the passing of the Reform Bill. From that period, they started in a new career of action, both at home and abroad. The sending out of agents was one of the great lines of operation attempted upon the Americans. This the Americans complained of as having been done in an imprudent and impossible way, and sure to meet with defeat. They have sent out agents to America who have returned defeated. They admit they were not successful, though they say they retreated only, that they were not defeated. They have failed – they admit they have failed in their object. One of these agents on his return made certain statements as to the condition of the slaves in America; and as to the state of the churches in the United States, which implicated not only the great body of Christian ministers of the country, but the government, and the people of America, except a small handful of individuals. If, as was admitted, the number of pastors in America was twelve to fifteen thousand, and only one thousand had embraced these views, were they anything but a small party? While yet the whole nation was denounced as wicked – and the wrath of Heaven invoked against the country. It was only a very small handful that came in for a share of the praise of his opponent; and the sympathies here were invoked, on the assumption of principles which it was his object to prove false and unfounded. What could be the cause of such an anomaly? that those principles which are said to be loved and admired here, are repudiated there to the extremity of pertinacious obstinacy? This cause it would be his duty to point out; first, he would say what perhaps no one would believe, that the question of American slavery, is in its name not only unjust, but absurd. There was, properly speaking, no such thing as American slavery. It was absurd to talk of American slavery, except in so far as it applied to the sentiments of what was the minority, although he would say a large minority, which tolerated slavery. It was not an American question. In America there were twenty-four separate republics; of these, twelve had no slaves, and twelve of them tolerated slavery. Two new states had recently been added to the Union, and God speed the day when others would be added, till the whole continent, from the Atlantic to the Pacific was included in union, carrying with the union, Liberty and Independence. Of the two states which were lately added, one was a slave state and the other free. Of the twelve free, independent, sovereign states of America to which he had alluded – one, Massachusetts, had, for a longer time than his opponent had lived, not tolerated slavery. There were no slaves in Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, or Illinois, and in four of them there never had been a slave. Eight of them, of their own free will and choice, abolished slavery without money and without price. By the influence of the Spirit of God, and the influence of divine truth, they had totally abolished slavery. Of the twelve states, at least four, Ohio, with a million of inhabitants, Indiana, Illinois, and Maine, never had a slave. Since 1785 till this hour, there had not been one slave in any of these states. These twelve either never had slaves or had abolished slavery without any remuneration. These states contain seven million out of the eleven million of the white population of the Union, and nearly two-thirds of the territorial extent of the republic as now peopled. And when we remember that they have stood as they now do for the last twenty years, as it was now more than twenty years since slavery was abolished, how could they be charged with the responsibility of the existence of slavery in other states, or be charged with fostering slavery which they were the first people upon earth to abolish, and the first to unite with other nations in putting down the slave trade as piracy. This he was aware would be denied; but though Wilberforce had labored in the cause for twenty years, the American constitution had fixed a limited time for the abolition of the slave trade, and the moment the twenty years had elapsed, the Congress did abolish it; and this was in the same month, and some days before the Abolition Bill had passed through Parliament. Thus, America was the first nation on earth which had abolished the slave trade, and made it piracy. If we judge by the number of republics which tolerate no slavery – if we judge by the number of American citizens who abhor slavery, it will be found not to be an American question, but one applicable only to a small portion of the nation. If he wished to prove that the British were idolaters, he could point to millions of idolaters in India, under the British Government, for every one in America who approved of slavery. If he wished to prove the British to be Catholics, and worshippers of the Virgin Mary, he could point to the west of Ireland, where were one thousand worshippers of the Virgin Mary for every one in America who did not wish slavery abolished. If he were to return to America, and get up public meetings, and address them about British idolatry, because the Indians were Idolaters, or on British Catholicism, because many of the Irish worshipped the Virgin Mary, would not the world at once see the absurdity and maliciousness of the charge; and if he heaped upon Britain every libellous epithet he could invent – if he got the wise, the good, and the fair, to applaud him, would not the world see at once the grossness of the absurdity. And where, then, lay the difference? The United States Government have no power to abolish slavery in South Carolina – Britain can abolish idolatry throughout its dominions. It was absurd to say it was an American question. America, as a nation, was not responsible, either in the sight of God or man, for the existence of slavery within certain portions of the Union. As a nation, it had done every thing within its power. The half hour having now expired, Mr. B. sat down; and

Mr. THOMPSON rose. He said he did not stand on the platform this evening to explain to them his views in reference to slavery. He would occupy no portion of their time by an exposition of any of the principles or views entertained by himself on the subject of slavery as it has existed in our own dependencies, or as it exists in America at the present moment, or in other portions of the globe. He stood there to justify that policy which in a distant land he had deemed it right to pursue; he stood there to justify the policy which had been adopted and pursued, and was still pursued by certain individuals in the United States, whether many or few, whether a handful or a multitude, who were known by the name of the abolitionists of the United States of America. He stood there to justify himself and them in the act of fearlessly, constantly, unceasingly, and universally, to every class and color on the face of the habitable globe, enunciating the great principles of equal justice and equal rights – of enunciating this great truth that slaveholding is a crime in the sight of God, and should be immediately and totally abolished. That God had in no instance given to man a discretionary power to hold property in his fellow-man; that instant emancipation was the right of the slave; that instant manumission was the duty of the master. That no government had a right to keep a single soul in slavery; that no nation had authority to permit slavery, let that nation exist where it may; if professing to be a Christian nation, so much the more atrocious was their wickedness. The nation which permitted the keeping in slavery of God's creatures, which allowed the traffic in human beings for 400 pieces of silver, even in the capital itself, was not entitled to be called a christian nation, and if professing to be a christian nation, so much the more pre-eminently wicked and infamous was the nation. By that act that infamous, wicked nation violated every christian feeling, and was worthy of being exposed to the scorn and derision of every nation under heaven, christian or pagan. This was a most momentous question, and he spoke strongly upon it, but he spoke advisedly. He did not speak angrily, but he did and must speak warmly on the subject of Slavery. He could not talk of millions of men and women, each of whom was endowed with a soul which was precious in the sight of God – each of whom was endowed with that principle which out-valued worlds – he could not speak of such, registered with the brutes, with calm unconcern, or classed with chattels, and be calm – if he could do so, he should be ready with these nails to open his breast, and tear therefrom a heart which would be unworthy of a man. He could and would speak calmly on other topics, but this was a subject which required energy, unceasing energy, till the evil was removed from the face of the earth, till all the kingdoms of the world had become the kingdoms of our God, and of his Christ. He was thankful for the present opportunity which had been afforded him of entering into this discussion; he was thankful that his opponent, for so it seemed he must be called, was an American, that he was a christian minister, that he was an opponent of slavery, that he brought to the question before them, talent, learning, patriotism, and christian feeling. Such an opponent he respected and wished the audience to respect. He would ask them to cherish his person, to respect his opinions, to weigh his arguments, to test his facts, and if they were just and righteous, to adopt his principles. If he (Mr. T.) knew the strongest expression he had ever used regarding America, he would use it to-night; if he knew in what recess of his heart his worst wish towards America was deposited he would drag it forth to the light, that his opponent might grapple with it in their presence. He would not soften down any of his language; he would not sugar over his words, he would not abate one iota of what he had ever said in reference to the wickedness of America on former occasions. Let his opponent weigh every syllable he (Mr. T.) had uttered, every statement he had ever made, every charge he had ever brought against his country or against his cloth, and if he found that he had exaggerated facts or stated what was not true, he would be glad to be shown it. He was there before them and his opponent to search after the truth, truth which would outlive Mr. Breckinridge – truth which would outlive Geo. Thompson – truth which was far more valuable than the proudest victory – truth which was invaluable to both – and let the truth stand out during the discussion which might follow; and when they had found out the truth, if they saw anything which had to be taken back – anything to be given up – anything for which to be sorry, he would try to outstrip his opponent in his readiness to retract what was wrong, to yield what was untenable, and to express his sorrow before God and the audience for what he had undeservedly said of America. With regard to the feelings he entertained towards the Americans, he need only refer to the last letter he had published to the American people, from which he would read a passage to show the feelings he entertained towards that country, as well as to those of her citizens who might reach these shores from America. Mr. Thompson then read the following passages: —