Discussion on American Slavery

FIFTH NIGHT – FRIDAY, JUNE 17

Mr. BRECKINRIDGE said that the order of the exercises of this evening had, without the fault of any one, placed him in a position which was not the most natural. Considering that it was his duty to support the negative of the point for this evening's discussion, it would have been most natural had the affirmation been first brought out. He said this arrangement was not the fault of any one, because it was not known that the point would fall to be discussed on this particular evening; for had it fallen on last night or to-morrow night, the order would have been as it ought to be. His position was, however, made somewhat better by the fact, that nothing that Mr. Thompson could say this evening, in an hour or two, could alter the assertions which he had already repeatedly made and published in Britain. Since the notice of this discussion had been published, he had, through the providence of God, been put in possession of six or seven papers and pamphlets containing the substance of what had been said by Mr. Thompson throughout the country, and reiterated by associated bodies of his friends under his eye. After reading these carefully, he found himself pretty fully possessed of that individual's charges and testimony against the ministers, private Christians, and churches of America; he would, therefore, take them as he found them in those publications, while Mr. Thompson's presence would enable him to explain, correct, or deny anything that might be erroneously stated. The first thing he should attempt to do, was to impeach the competency of Mr. Thompson as a witness in this or any similar case. Mr. Thompson had shown that he was utterly incompetent, wisely to gather and faithfully to report testimony on any subject involving great and complicated principles. He did not wish to say anything personally offensive to Mr. Thompson; but he must be plain, and he would first produce proof of what he said, which was as it regarded this whole nation perfectly ad hominem. He would show the audience what Mr. Thompson had said of them, and then they would better judge what was his competency to be a witness against the Americans. At a meeting in the Hopeton Rooms at Edinburgh, since his return from the United States, Mr. Thompson said:

We were really under a worse bondage than the slaves of the United States. We kissed our chains and hugged our fetters. We were governed by our drunken appetite.

The lecturer, in the concluding portion of his address, depicted in a tone of high moral feeling, the degraded condition of Great Britain as a nation, in consequence of her extreme drunkenness. He shewed that habits of intemperance, or feelings and prejudices generated by intemperance, pervaded every class, from the highest to the lowest, the richest to the poorest. Statesmen bowed upon the altar of expediency; and, above all, the sanctuary was not clean. As a Christian nation, we were paralized in our efforts to evangelize the world – partly by the millions upon millions actually expended upon ardent spirits – partly by the selfish and demoralizing feelings which this sensual indulgence in particular was known to produce. How could we, as a nation, upbraid America with her system of slavery when we ourselves were but glorying in a voluntary slavery of a thousand times more defiling and abominable description? In our own country, it might be said that there was, as it were, a conspiracy against the bodies and souls of her people.

Now in any Court of Justice, he would take his stand upon the fact that the man who made that speech must be a monomaniac, and he believed no competent tribunal, after hearing it, would receive his testimony as to the character or conduct of any nation on the face of the earth. Or if there lingered a doubt on the subject, he should show from the burden of his charges against America, that he spoke in the same general spirit, and nearly in the very same terms of her as of Britain, although the fault found with each country was totally different. He spoke of each as the very worst nation on the earth, because of the special crime charged. Any man who could allow himself to say that the two most enlightened nations on earth were in substance the two most degraded nations on earth; who could permit himself to bring such railing accusations successively against two great people, on account of the sins of a small portion of each, which he had looked at till he could see nothing else, and with the perseverance of a goldleaf-beater, exercised his ingenuity in stretching out to the utmost limits over each community; a man who not only can see little to love anywhere that does not derive its complexion from himself, and who, the moment he finds a blot on his brethren, or his country, instead of walking backwards and hiding it with the filial piety of the elder sons of Noah, mocks over it with the rude and unfeeling bitterness of Canaan; such a man is worthily impeached, as incompetent to testify. Nay, I put the issue where Mr. Thompson has put it. If this nation be such as he has described it to be, I demand, with unanswerable emphasis, how can it dare to call us, or any other people, to account on any subject whatever? If, on the other hand, what he has said of this nation be false, I equally demand how can he be credited in what he says of us – of any other nation under the sun? After this caveat against all that such a witness could say, he would in the first place observe, that all the accusations brought by Mr. Thompson against Americans, were imbued with such bitterness and intemperance as ought to awaken suspicion in the minds of all who hear them. There was visible not only a violent national antipathy against that whole country, but also a strong prejudice in favor of the one side and against the other in the local parties there, which, before any impartial tribunal, ought greatly to weaken any credit that might otherwise be attached to his testimony. Besides an open hostility to the nation as such, and a most envomed hatred to certain men, parties, and principles in America, the witness has exhibited such a wounded feeling of vanity from his want of success in America; such a glorying of his friends, and that just in proportion to their subserviency to him, and such a contemptuous and unmerited depreciation of his opponents, as should put every man who reads or hears his proofs at once on his guard. As to the opinions and conclusions of such a person, even from admitted facts, they are of course worthless; and his inferences from hearsay and idle reports, worse than trash. But what I mean to say is, that such a witness, considered strictly as testifying to what he asserts of his own knowledge, is to be heard by a just man with very great caution. For my own part, at the risk of being called again a pettifogger, by this informer, I am bound to say that his conduct impeaches his credibility fully as much as it has before been shown to affect his competency; and while I have peculiar knowledge of the facts, sufficient to assert that his main accusations are false, I fully believe that the case he had himself made, did of itself justify all good men to draw the same conclusion, merely from general principles. I will venture to go a step farther, and express the opinion that they who are acquainted with Mr. Thompson, as he exhibits himself in the public eye, and who have knowledge of the past success, which really did, or which he allows himself to believe did attend his efforts in West-India emancipation, (a success, however, which I do not comprehend, as the case was settled against him and his party, on the two chief points on which they staked themselves, namely, immediate abolition and no compensation,) they who can call to mind the preparation and pretension with which he set out for America, the gigantic work he had carved for himself there, the signal defeat he met with, and the terror in which he fled the country; may find enough to justify the fear that the fate of George Thompson has fully as large a share in his recollections of America as the fate of the poor slave. In the second place, I charge upon Mr. Thompson that those parts of his statements which might possibly be in part true, are so put as to create false impressions, and have nearly the same effect as if they were wholly false on the minds of those who read or hear them. This results from the constant manner of stating what might possibly be true; and it is not only calculated to produce a false impression, and make the casual reader believe in a result different from what would be presented if Mr. Thompson were on oath and forced to tell the whole truth, but the uniformity and dexterity with which this is done, leaves us astonished how it could be accidental. He (Mr. B.) assumed that all of them had read or would read Mr. Thompson's charges. After doing so they would the better apprehend what was now meant; but, in the mean time, he would illustrate it by a case or two. Thus, when Mr. T. spoke of the ministers in the United States being slave-holders, he did it in such a way as to lead the reader to believe that this was a general thing; that the most of them, if not the whole of them, were slave-owners. He did not tell them that none of the ministers in twelve whole States were or could easily be slave-holders, seeing they were not inhabitants of a slave State; he did not tell them that the cases of ministers owning slaves were rare even in some of the slave States; and a fair sample of the majority in not a single State of the Union; he left the charge indefinite, and did not condescend to tell whether the number of ministers so accused was one half, or one third, or one fourth, or one hundredth part of the whole number in the United States. He left it wholly indefinite, on the broad charge that American ministers were slave-holding ministers; knowing, perhaps intending, that the impression taken up should be of the aggregate mass of American ministers; when he knew himself all the while that the overwhelming mass of American ministers had never owned a slave; and that those who had, were exceptions from the general rule rather than samples of the whole. It may well be asked how much less sinful it was to rob men of their good name, than of their freedom? Not content with even this injustice, Mr. Thompson had gone so far as to charge the ministers of America with dealing in slaves; slave-driving ministers and slave-dealing ministers, were amongst his common accusations. Now, said Mr. B., he would lay a strong constraint upon himself, and reply to these statements as if they were not at once atrocious and insupportable. The terms used by Mr. Thompson were universally understood in the United States, to mean the carrying on of a regular traffic in slaves as a business. The meaning was the same here, and every one who had heard or read one of his printed speeches, was ex vi termini obliged to understand this charge like the preceding, as expressing his testimony as to the conduct of American ministers generally, if not universally.

Now I will admit that there may be in America, one minister in one thousand, or perhaps five hundred, who may at some period of his ministry, when he had no sufficient light on the subject, have bought or sold slaves a single time, or perhaps twice, or possibly thrice. But I solemnly declare I never knew, nor heard of, nor do I believe there exists in all America, one such minister, as is above described; nor any sect that would hold fellowship with him. He would throw under the third general head charges of a different kind from the preceding. Mr. Thompson, when generalities fail, takes up some extreme case, which might probably be founded on truth, and gives it as a specimen of the general practice; thereby creating by false instances, as well as by indefinite accusations, an impression which he knows to be entirely foreign from the truth. If he, (Mr. B.) were to tell in America that on his way to this meeting to-night, he saw two blind men begging in the streets, with their arms locked to support their tottering steps, while the crowd passed them idly by; and if he gave this as a specimen of the manner in which the unfortunate poor were treated in Scotland, he would not give a worse impression, nor make a more unfair statement of the fact, than Mr. Thompson had done, nearly without exception, in his statements of America. Such a spirit and practice as this, pervaded the whole of Mr. Thompson's speeches. He would select a few instances to enforce his meaning. There was a single Presbyterian Church at Nashville, Tennessee. Now he, (Mr. B.) happened, in the providence of God, to be somewhat acquainted with the past history of that church; and was happy to call its present benevolent minister his friend. He could consequently speak of it from his own knowledge. Mr. Thompson said that a young man went to Nashville, who, either through his own imprudence, or the violence of the disjointed times, was arrested, tried by a popular committee, found guilty of spreading seditious papers, and sentenced to be whipped; that he had received twenty lashes, and was then discharged. This he believed to be substantially true, and well remembered hearing of the occurrence; and taking the young man's account of it as true, he had been greatly shocked at it, and had now no idea of defending it. But in Mr. Thompson's statement of the case, there was a minute misrepresentation, which showed singular indifference to facts. Mr. T. said the young man went to Tennessee to sell cottage bibles, in which business he succeeded well, for the reason, adds the narrator, that Bibles were scarce in the South; although he could not fail to know, that before the period in question, every family in all those States that would receive a Bible, had been furnished with one by the various Bible Societies. This, however, was not the main reason for a reference to this case; but was mentioned incidentally, to show the nature of the feelings and accusations indulged in by this gentleman. His account went on to say, sometimes that there were seven, sometimes eleven elders of this Presbyterian Church. It was not intended to lay any stress on the discrepancy; as the fault might be the reporter's. But seven, or eleven; it was again and again charged, that all of them, every one, was present, trying, and consenting to the punishment of the unhappy young man, "plowing up his back," and mingling, perhaps in the mob who cursed him, even for his prayers. To make the case inexpressibly horrible, it is added, that these seven or eleven elders, had as to part of them, distributed the sacramental elements, to the abolitionist, the very Sabbath before, the day on which the seven elders participated in this outrage. Now I say first, that if this story were literally true, no man knows better than Mr. Thompson, that no falsehood could be more glaring than to say or insinuate, that the case would be a fair average specimen of what the leading men in the American churches generally might be expected to do, in like circumstances. Yet for this purpose, he has repeatedly used it! No man could know better than he, that if the case were true in all its parts, it would every where be accounted a violent and unprecedented thing, which could happen at all only in most extraordinary circumstances. Yet he has so stated it, over and over, as to force the impression that it is a fair sample of American Christianity. But, said Mr. B. I call in question all parts of the story, that implicate any Christian. I do not believe the statements. Let me have proof. I do not believe there were either seven or eleven elders in the church in question. Record their names. If there were so many, it is next to impossible, that every one of them, was on the comparatively small committee that tried the abolitionist. Produce the proofs; and I believe it will turn out, that if either of them was present, it was to mitigate popular violence; and that his influence perhaps, saved the life of him he is traduced for having oppressed. He did not mean to stake his assertion against proof; but from his experience and general knowledge of the parties, he had no hesitation in giving it as his opinion, that the facts, when known, would not justify the assertions of Mr. Thompson, even as to the particular case; and believing this, I again challenge the production of his authority. But, if it be true in all its parts, I repeat, it is every thing but truth, to say that it affords a just specimen of the elders of the Presbyterian Churches of America. Another case resembling the preceding in its principle, is found in what Mr. Thompson has said of the Baptists of the Southern States. There are, says he, above 157,000 members in upwards of 3000 Baptist Churches, in those States, "almost all both ministers and members being slave holders." Allowing this statement to be true, and that each slave holder has ten slaves on an average, which is too small for the truth, there would be an amount of slaves equal to 1,570,000 owned by the Baptist of the Southern States. If this be true, and the census of 1830 true also, there were only left about 500,000 slaves to divide among all the other churches; leaving for the remainder of the people, none at all! So that after all this, though churches be bad, the nation is clean enough.

Let us now make some allowance for this gentleman's extravagance, especially as he did think he was speaking under correction, and divide his 157,000 Baptists into 52,000 families, of three professors of religion in each. This is more than the average for each family; especially in a church admitting only adults; and the true number of families, for that number of professors, would be nearer one hundred than fifty thousand. Twenty slaves to the family is below the average of the slave owning families of the South; so that at the lowest rate, the Baptists in a few States, according to this person, own 1,040,000 slaves at the least, or above half the number that our last census gives to the whole union. The extraordinary folly of such statements, would appear more clearly to the audience when they understood, that as large a proportion of all the blacks, as of all the whites in America are professors of religion; that above half of all slaves who profess religion, are Baptists; and that, therefore, if there are 157,000 Baptists in the Southern States, instead of being "almost all slave holders," at least a third of them are themselves slaves. He gave these instances to show that Mr. Thompson had taken extreme cases containing some show of truth as specimens of the whole of America, and had thereby produced totally false impressions. What truth there was in them, was so terrifically exaggerated, that no dependence whatever could be placed upon any of his testimony. And this would be still more manifest after examining the charge brought by Mr. Thompson, that the very churches in America own slaves; and several of his speeches contain a pretty little dialogue with some slaves in the fields, the whole interest of which turns on their calling themselves "the Church's Slaves." This was spoken of as it were in accordance with the usual course of things in the United States. Indeed, Mr. Thompson had not only spoken with his usual violence and generality of the "slave holding churches of America," and declared his conviction that "all the guilt of the system" should be laid "on the church of America;" but at the very latest joint exhibition of himself and his friend Moses Roper, in London, it was stated by the latter in one of his usual interludes to Mr. Thompson, perhaps in his presence, certainly uncontradicted, that, slave holding was universally practised by "all Christian societies" in America; the societies of Friends only excepted. It may excite a blush in America, to know that the poor negro's silly falsehood was received with cheers by the London audience.

What then should the similar declarations of Mr. Thompson, made deliberately and repeatedly, and with infinite pretence of candour and affection, what feelings can they excite; and how will that insulted people regard the easy credulity which has led the Christians of Britain to believe and reiterate charges in which it is not easy to tell whether there is less truth or more malignity? For how stood the facts? What church owns slaves? What Christian corporation is a proprietor of men? Out of our ten thousand churches perhaps half are involved in this sin? Perhaps a tenth part? Surely one Presbytery at least? No, – this mountain of fiction has but a grain of truth to support its vast and hateful proportions. If there be above five congregations in all America that own slaves, I never heard of them. The actual number, of whose existence I ever heard, is, I believe, precisely three! They are all Presbyterian congregations, and churches situated in the southern part of Virginia, and got into their unhappy condition in the following manner: – Many years ago, during those times of ignorance at which God winked – when such a man as John Newton could go a slaving voyage to Africa, and write back that he never had enjoyed sweeter communion with God than on that voyage; during such a period as that, a few well meaning individuals had bequeathed a small number of slaves for the support of the gospel in three or four churches. These unfortunate legacies had increased and multiplied themselves to a great extent, and under present circumstances to a most inconvenient degree. A fact which puts the clearest contradiction on that assertion of this "accuser of the brethren" – representing their condition as being one of unusual privation and suffering. Of late years these cases had attracted attention, and given great uneasiness to some of the persons connected with these churches. I have on this platform, kindly furnished me, like most of the other documents I have, since this debate was publicly known – a volume of letters written to one of these churches on the whole case, by the Rev. Mr. Paxton, at that time its pastor. That gentleman is now on this side of the Atlantic, and may perhaps explain what Mr. Thompson has so sedulously concealed; how he was a colonizationist; how he manumitted and sent his own servants to Liberia; how he labored in this particular matter with his church, long before the existence of abolitionism; and how, finding the difficulties insuperable, he had written this kind and modest volume, worth all the abolition froth ever spued forth, – and left the charge in which he found it so difficult to preserve at once an honest conscience and a healthful influence. It will not, however, be understood that even these few churches are worthy of the indiscriminate abuse lavished on us, all for their sakes; nor that their present path of duty is either an easy or a plain one. Whether it is that there are express stipulations in the original instruments conveying the slaves in trust for certain purposes; or whether the general principle of law, which would transfer to the State, or to the heir of the first owner, the slaves with their increase, – upon a failure of the intention of the donor, either by act of God, or of the parties themselves, embarrass the subject; it is very certain that wiser and better men than either Mr. Thompson or myself, are convinced that these vilified churches have no power whatever to set their slaves free. If the churches were to give up the slaves, it could only have the effect, it is believed, to send them into everlasting bondage to the heirs of the original proprietors. They have therefore justly considered it better for the slaves themselves that they should remain as they were in a state of nominal servitude, rather than be remitted into real slavery. Such is the real state of the few cases which have first been exhibited as the sin, if not the actual condition of the American churches; and then exaggerated into the utmost turpitude by hiding every mitigating circumstance, adding some purely new, and distorting all things. Whether right or wrong, the same state of things exists amongst the Society of Friends in North Carolina, to a partial extent, and in another form. They did not consider themselves liable to just censure, although they held title in and authority over slaves, as individuals, while they gave them their whole earnings, and had collected large sums from their brethren in England, which were applied to the benefit of these slaves. It is not now for the first time that charges have been made against the Church of God – that Judah is like all the heathen. But all who embark in such courses – have met with the common fate of the revilers of God's people; and they, with such as select to stand in their lot – may find in the word of life a worse end apportioned for them, than even for those they denounce, in case every word they utter had been true. We bless God that no weapon formed against Zion can prosper. There was one other instance which he had noted under this head as requiring some comment, which could not bear omission, regarding the private members of the Christian churches in the United States, of whom a casual hearer or reader of Mr. Thompson's speeches would believe that the far greater part actually owned slaves; that very few, and they almost exclusively abolitionists, considered slavery at all wrong; that with one accord they deprived the slaves of all religious privileges, and used them, not only as a chattel, but as nothing else than a chattel. According to our last census, there were about 11,000,000 of whites, 2,000,000 of slaves, and 400,000 free blacks in America, making a total of nearly thirteen and a half millions. All the slaves were gathered into the 12 most southerly states, free blacks were not far from half in the free and half in the slave states, and of the whites over 7,000,000 were in the free, and less than 3,000,000 in the slave states. The best information I possess on this subject, authorizes me to say – about 1 person in 9, throughout the nation, black and white, is a member of a Christian church, the proportion being somewhat larger to the north, and comparatively smaller at the south. There are, therefore, above 1,100,000 white Christians in the United States, of which about 800,000 live in the 12 free States, and neither own slaves nor think slavery right; leaving rather over 330,000 for the 12 slave States. Now, if these white Christians in the slave States own all the slaves, and the other 8-9ths of the whites owned none at all, there will be only about 6 slaves to each Christian there, a number far below the average of the slave holders; and all the North, and all the South, except Christians, free of charge and guilt, in the specific thing. But if we divide these Christians into families, and suppose there may be as many, as one in three or four of them, who is a head of a family, say 100,000; and that they own all the slaves: in that case, there would be an average of twenty slaves to every white head of a Christian family in the slave States. But here again all the slaves would be absorbed: all the North innocent, above two-thirds of the Christians at the South proved to be not slave holders at all; and all the followers of the devil wholly innocent of that crime. These calculations demonstrate that these accusations are as groundless and absurd as any of the preceding. And while it is painfully true that in the slaveholding States far too many Christians do still own slaves; it is equally true, that they bear a small proportion to those who own none, even in those States. If we suppose the Christians in America to be about on an equal footing as to wealth with other people; and to have no more conscience about slavery, than those around them in the slave States; and that twenty slaves may be taken as the average, to each master; and a ninth of the people pious, as stated before, it follows that only about 11,000 professors of religion can be slaveholders; or about one in every hundred of the whole number in the nation. Yet every one of the above suppositions is against the churches, and yet upon this basis rests the charges of a candid, affectionate Christian brother against them all! The only remaining illustration of Mr. Thompson's proneness to represent a little truth, in such a way as to have all the effects of an immense misrepresentation, regards his own posture, doings and sufferings in America. "Fourteen months of toil, of peril, and persecution, almost unparalleled;" "there were paid myrmidons seeking my blood;" "there were thousands waiting to rejoice over my destruction;" "when any individual tells George Thompson who has put his life into his hands, and gone where slavery is rife; when I, George Thompson, am told I am to be spared," &c. Similar statements, ad infinitum, fill up all his speeches; and are noticed now, not for the purpose of commenting on, or even contradicting them, but of affording my countrymen, who may chance to see the report of this discussion, specimens, as our certificates often run "of the modesty, probity, and good demeanor," of the individual.